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wushijiao -



Quote:

Being in Guangzhou for the last few days, I can safely say that Putonghua has completely taken
over Cantonese. Sad but true... Seems that there are more notherners in Guangzhou than the locals.

Just wondering, to what degree is that due to the education system and the media, which are both
in Putonghua?

Also, I think it is important to keep in mind that cities like Guangzhou got special treatment
under the CCP, often times using money from farmers who were legally barred from entering the
city. Then they could enter the city and were exploited in sweatshops and the like. Or even killed
by the Guangzhou police.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/Jul/69295.htm

I think the term "invasion" is fairly insulting and rude term to describe other Chinese people
(not that it is any of my business, I guess).



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Ncao -



Quote:

Just wondering, to what degree is that due to the education system and the media, which are both
in Putonghua?

Actually unlike other Chinese cities Guangzhou really has no restrictions on dialects in the
media. There are many television and radio programs in Cantonese.










atitarev -

Many foreign words penetrated Mandarin via Cantonese, so it's a two-way street.

These words and many more sound much closer to the original in Cantonese than in Mandarin:
Jiānádà, Ruìdiǎn, Ruìshì










Quest -



Quote:

But another clear fact is that cultural fusion is an unavoidable trend.

It's not unavoidable, it's being promoted.

studentyoung, the examples you gave, those were passive absorptions. Constant migration is active
invasion. They are different. I think I have a good sense of what kind of Guangzhouren you are.

wannabeafreak, which part of the city did you go to? there's a trend for the locals to move to the
suburbs just to get away from the filth, but then if you look carefully, I think you can still
find lots of Guangzhouren around the city.










Ian_Lee -

I have no qualm against learning Putonghua.

But the problem is those locals who speak imperfect Putonghua in Guangzhou are stigmatized by the
newspapers (probably seated with non-Cantonese editor) as 不文明 (uncivilized).

Well, I only consider those behaviors like spitting, throwing rubbish, jumping queue,....etc as
uncivilized behavior (I would say the northerners are in a bigger proportion to engage in such
activities) while unable to speak fluent Putonghua can at most be described as "un-nationalistic".

Anyway, why do Putonghua speakers think that the "落车" sign in Guangzhou is incorrect and
should be "下车"? 落车 should be readily comprehensible to them after a second guess. The
difference is as trivial as between "To rent" and "To let".










Quest -



Quote:

I think the term "invasion" is fairly insulting and rude term to describe other Chinese people
(not that it is any of my business, I guess).

I think calling it invasion is very reasonable. If nothing's done, it won't be long before the
local culture and language completely disappear... it's worse than invasion, it's a war you can't
fight. And, who are they to call non-mandarin speakers uncivilized ? colonial overlords? Beijing's
官僚主义 can rot in hell...

take America, for example, I am sure many Americans would be upset if Latino Americans took over
and changed the national langauge to Spanish and "forced" everyone to speak Spanish.










studentyoung -



Quote:

I think I have a good sense of what kind of Guangzhouren you are.

唔好"I
think"啦。实际D，唔该快D叫FBI黎查我啦，我话埋俾你知，我地家族o既族谱就�
��左系我屋企o既二楼咋! ~ ~　我宜家真系好惊惊啊~　～！惊住你叫唔郁D
FBI，叫呢度D派出所o既阿 Sir 黎查啦！Please don't just "I think". Please call for FBI
to investigate me. I can tell you that my family record book is placed on the second flood of my
house. I am so scared ~ ~! I am afraid that you can’t call for any FBI, so just call for a local
police at a local police station to investigate me. )



Quote:

Constant migration is active invasion.

Good point! Quest, why did you immigrate to U.S? I am sure that you won’t forget that
“constant migration is active invasion”, right?



Quote:

take America, for example, I am sure many Americans would be upset if Latino Americans took over
and changed the national langauge to Spanish and "forced" everyone to speak Spanish.

Take Guangzhou as an example, the national language is still Putonghua. I have to remind you
again, Quest, Guangzhou is a city of China, not an independent country! But Cantonese is still
very active in people’s daily life. I, as being a Cantonese, speak in Cantonese everyday.



Quote:

Actually unlike other Chinese cities Guangzhou really has no restrictions on dialects in the
media. There are many television and radio programs in Cantonese.

Yes, Ncao is right. 珠江台、广州电视台、南方电视台 have numerous Cantonese TV
programs for both local Cantonese people to enjoy and northerners to learn Cantonese. What’s
more, there are so many radio stations broadcast in Cantonese, like
城市之声，FM96.7金曲频道, 羊城交通台.
In fact, Guangzhou Daily广州日报 is the most impactive and biggest 机关党报 in Guangzhou.
You can still find that Cantonese is even taught on it.

http://gzdaily.dayoo.com/html/2007-0...t_22878938.htm 流嘢
If you input “饶原生”or "阿叻同阿靓" in the blank of “搜索”, you can get more
Cantonese material.



Quote:

Being in Guangzhou for the last few days, I can safely say that Putonghua has completely taken
over Cantonese. Sad but true... Seems that there are more notherners in Guangzhou than the locals.

Being a Cantonese in Guangzhou for all my life (so far), I can safely say that Putonghua has not
yet completely taken over Cantonese. But Cantonese now can master Putonghua better than they were
twenty years ago.

Thanks!










HashiriKata -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Quest

take America, for example, I am sure many Americans would be upset if Latino Americans took over
and changed the national langauge to Spanish and "forced" everyone to speak Spanish.


Quest, should I remind you that America, by your definition, belongs to the "Red Indians" ? No
need yet to mention Spanish speakers taking over, should we first drive all English speakers out
of this continent?

I can definitely understand your feelings about Guangzhou being flooded with Northerners but what
do you propose to do? Setting up barbed-wire barriers all around Guangzhou and stop all movement
of Chinese people within China? Or perhaps calling for Guangzhou's independence by inviting
outside forces to come in to occupy China and keep Northerners at bay ?










gato -

Most of the new immigrants to Guangzhou aren't "Northerners" per se, but are from Hunan, Sichuan,
Jiangxi, and Guangxi, the southern provinces that surround Guangdong. This may not add anything to
the debate, but take it as a factual correction, if you will.

See this article:
http://news.sohu.com/20070209/n248149046.shtml
善待农民工 广州副市长称市民不怕外来工抢饭碗
2007年02月09日13:56

　苏泽群介绍，广州1100万常住人口中，就有360多万外来人口，纳入各级劳动
保障部门登记就业的达160.65万人(不含中央、部队驻粤及省直属用人单位)，��
�量较去年末的147.36万增长9.0%。其中外来农民工为138.25万人，占总量的86.05%��
�主要来自湖南、四川、江西、广西等省份。
Rough translation: Among the 11 million Guangzhou residents, 3.6 million are immigrants, 1.38
million of whom are migrant workers from rural areas, mainly from Hunan, Sichuan, Jiangxi,
Guangxi, and other provinces.










atitarev -

I didn't know much about disagreements between Cantonese and Mandarin speakers (read: any Chinese,
not speaking Cantonese) but I also read Sheik's Cantonese forum where Cantonese speakers in Canada
vent their spleen about being flooded by "Mandarin speaking freeloaders" and hanging out with them
in Chinatowns instead of mixing with Filipinos, Punjabs, etc. Ridiculous

What's the reason for such interdialectal racism? Is this limited to Cantonese vs Mandarin?

I won't quote anything but here's the link:
http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/pho...1,63335,page=1












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