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Anyone studying in Dalian this summer?
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koreth -

Just got my admission letter from 辽宁师范大学 this afternoon. I'm going to be taking a
4-week class starting 7/15, then hopefully heading to North Korea for a few days if I can work out
the logistics, then down to Shanghai to visit a friend.

Anyone else going to Dalian to study this summer? Liaoning Normal or anywhere else?

I chose Dalian mostly because it sounds like a pretty pleasant place to spend a few weeks
studying, and there's not as much English everywhere as in Beijing.



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heymister -

Hello... I'm currently studying in Dalian at TLI (http://www.dltli.com/indexen.htm) and will be
here through mid-August. My reasoning for picking Dalian was pretty much the same as yours and
I've found that it definitely meets the criteria for having very few English speakers. The
foreigners around here are mostly Koreans, Japanese, and Russians. Even so, I see very few
foreigners on a day to day basis and it certainly does[ feel like I am in a foreign land - unlike
Beijing.

Still, if you're not careful you can easily spend your time at expat hangouts and not learn. But I
guess that's a possibility everywhere you go.

- Mike










koreth -

Cool! We should meet up and say hi, at least.

I'm hoping I have the self-discipline to avoid spending a lot of time at the expat hangouts,
though I'm sure I'll check a couple of them out just to see what they're like. The fact that I'm
there for a relatively short time will hopefully make that easier.

In addition to my classes, I'm going to be telecommuting part-time -- even though it's short, my
trip is much longer than the annual vacation time at my company -- so if you see me hanging out at
any English-speaking enclaves, feel free to tell me to either get back to work or go hang out at a
Chinese-speaking place instead.

How are you finding the local accent in Dalian? Do you mostly hear Dalianhua out on the street, or
is standard Mandarin more dominant?










Jamoldo -

I'll be at Liaoning Normal in a few weeks for the summer program...










koreth -

What level? (I'm guessing not "raw beginner" since you're posting from Beijing.) If you are in the
"more than beginner, less than advanced" camp like me, perhaps there will be two English speakers
in class rather than just one.

Actually I have no idea how they organize their class levels. I believe I'll get tested and placed
in what they consider an appropriate class, but no idea what that will actually mean. As long as
it's not "Here's a list of 10 chengyu, you have 5 minutes to memorize them and use them in a
spoken presentation," I should be happy.

Is this your first time at that school?










Jamoldo -

I'm guessing Intermediate since I've studied in Beijing for a year. Actually I'm currently back
home in the US now and will be back in Beijing next week (cutting it close).

I too have no idea how they are going to do it, we'll see I guess. My first time at Liaoning...
I'm looking forward to it. What are your fall plans?










koreth -

Unfortunately I have a full-time job back home -- one I like a lot, so no temptation to abandon it
-- which means my stay in China will be relatively short-lived. I'll be in Dalian for 4 weeks,
then taking a side trip to North Korea by way of Dandong (see the "North Korea from Dandong"
thread), then visiting a friend in Shanghai for a week or so. From an immersion point of view I'm
hoping ~5 weeks is enough time to bump my fluency up a bit, though obviously more would be better.

Are you going for the full six weeks?










Jamoldo -

Koreth, you're heading to DPRK? I'm jealous. Maybe we can go to Dandong together. I dont have the
money for DPRK, but I have a friend who has family in Dandong, so I've love to see them.

I'm going to go for 5 weeks or 6 weeks. I haven't decided yet. I have friends in Korea and Japan
and would like to check one of those places out before getting back into Beijing.










koreth -

You're welcome to come up to Dandong, but if you're going to be at LNU for 5 or 6 weeks, I suspect
the timing might not work out -- my NK tour starts on August 14, and I have to be up there a day
early so they can take care of my visa. My plan was to head up there on the 12th, book myself a
hotel for a couple nights, and spend the 13th seeing the sights in Dandong.










Jamoldo -

yeah no worries. I'll probably just go to Dandong for a weekend or something to hang out with my
friend. It's not far from Dalian apparently, no more than 5 hours by bus, which is something I can
definitely handle. I'll probably just go on a Friday afternoon after class or something.

Are they still charging Americans outrageous prices to go to DPRK? Last I checked (a few months
ago), they were charging quite a bit more than our foreign friends.












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Free Chinese Lesson - 1 bdrm in Huaqingjiayuan WuDaoKou open in June -

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1 bdrm in Huaqingjiayuan WuDaoKou open in June
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jinjin -

one room in a two bedroom flat opening up in mid-June in Huaqingjiayuan in WuDaoKou.

Minutes walking/biking from Qinghua, BLCU, and BeiDa. Right on several bus lines. Near many of the
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Rent is 2250rmb/month ( 288.46USD) with a 2250rmb deposit.

Maid service: 10rmb/hour ( 1.28USD) available to come as often as you want.

Internet wires are already installed (you will have to renew a plan). I can leave you the wireless
router that I purchased.

You will have a large double bed (I can leave my nice eggcrate mattress pad), spacious closets,
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The bathroom has a western toilet, and shower with removable head.

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Learning Mandarin - "Learning Chinese not so hard" - Page 4 -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
"Learning Chinese not so hard"
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Long Pan -

Teaching material is definitely one point to consider in learning a language. As well as
standardisation of phonetic. Anyone who tried to learn Cantonese knows that the big trouble is
that 1) there is no unique and solid phonetic you can rely on; 2) teaching material are rather
poor.

As for Arabic I do think it is less complicated than Chinese. First they have an alphabet. Then
you'll find some commune roots with French for example (and on the other way, Tunisian, Moroccan,
Algerian people do not have much difficulties to speak French). The big trouble with Arabic is
that each country has its own dialect (spoken) with quite big differences (a Moroccan friend
travelling with me in Egypt had to speak English with the people; but she could guess more or less
what people said). The traditional Arabic is like latin for Italian people. It may be quite close
to Egyptian or Middle East Arabic but very different from Tunisian, Algerian, Lybian and Marocan
dialects. Last but not least, it seems that teaching material are pretty poor and that they mostly
focus on traditional Arabic.



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atitarev -

Long Pan, you understand it correctly but don't forget that what you call Latin for Italians is
not quite correct. Modern Standard Arabic is almost the only written and formal form of Arabic
used. All newspapers, educational materials, formal texts and documents are written in MSA, it's
the language of media. It's not the same as the classical and Quranic Arabic but very close. The
variety of spoken dialects are not standardised and seldom used in the written form.

The writing system:
Short vowels, their absense (sukuun) and doubling of consonants (shadda) are not written in Arabic
and you can't easily determine what they are. Not only the vocabulary but good knowledge of
grammar is required to read an Arabic text. Partially phonetical script is almost like phonemes in
Chinese - you can guess but you never sure

Grammar:
How much pain is it to learn plural forms in Chinese? none
There are pages of plural pattern forms in Arabic (not only MSA but dialects have this)
Verb conjugations are not straightforward, especially when root letters are semivowels or doubled
letters. Passive forms are written the same way as active but pronounced differently, need to know
the internal (unwritten) vowels.

Arabic pronunciation is difficult for everybody. There are a lot of sounds, which don't existing
in any other language and similar sounding sounds, which are quite distinct to an Arabic speaker
but sound the same to a learner.

The diglossia in the Arab world is different from that of China. You still need to learn standard
Arabic to understand Arabic written text but you will have hard time practising it because not
many Arabs themselves have mastered it + very low literacy rates. MSA is no-one's mother tongue
and is seldom spoken on the street but it's the language of education and media, the link between
very distant dialects.

Very common cause for frustration: very difficult to look up words in dictionaries, finding root
letters, taking away prefixes/suffixes, finding out which verb form is used.

My native tongue Russian is also difficult for foreigners but we write what we speak and you can
learn by reading. Russian is very homogenous across all Russia and there are plentiful resources.
Native Chinese find find it very hard to learn.










aussie_mate -

for those ppl who don't believe in the importance of tones, try turning up to a new ctiy and
telling a taxi driver a place name without the right tones and see how that turns out.










Pravit -

Many excellent points brought up in this thread, just wanted to comment on one bit I found
interesting:



Quote:

So yes, I think the visual data people receive influences their listening, if they even listen in
the first place...If they don't see you are a foreigner they probably won't even really second
guess that you are Chinese if you are somewhat decent in pronunciation since there are so many
Chinese with non standard putonghua as well....

I've never been in their shoes, but I think many (obvious) foreigners in China attribute many of
their problems to them looking foreign. I'm of Chinese descent, and I've been told that my Chinese
pronunciation is more than decent, but every time I have anything more than a trivial exchange
with a native speaker, I inevitably get asked if I'm Korean or Japanese. There have also been
plenty of occasions when Chinese have asked me to repeat things two or even three times despite me
being absolutely sure that I said it clearly. Given the extremely wide range of accents and
dialects that native speakers can understand, I think it's safe to assume that it was our
pronunciation that was off. My ultimate goal is for people to think I'm some 乡下家伙 rather
than a Korean exchange student...

I agree Chinese is too often portrayed as more difficult than it actually is. In terms of grammar,
I think the language is actually quite easy; the problem is that it's very slow to acquire because
of the reading issue mentioned earlier. I also read books very slowly in Chinese because I have
this irrational urge to look up every word even though I usually can guess what it means; it just
bothers me I don't know how to pronounce it.










koreth -

Interesting. I'm basing my "it's because I'm a white guy" perception largely on the many times
when I've been out with my girlfriend (a native speaker) and said something to someone else in
Chinese. I get a blank stare, repeat myself, the person understands, and later I turn to my
girlfriend and ask her what I got wrong the first time. Very often she tells me I sounded about
the same both times, or at least that my pronunciation was close enough to be comprehensible the
first time.

She is (at my request) not at all shy about correcting me when I bungle my pronunciation, so I'm
pretty sure it's not just her trying to spare my feelings.

Also, when we go to a couple of our favorite Chinese restaurants where the owners recognize me and
already know I speak some Mandarin, they almost always understand me the first time. But these
aren't places we go often enough (nor do I ever speak for long enough) that they would have had
time to get used to my accent.

Not saying my pronunciation is perfect -- far from it, I screw up all the time and there are some
sound sequences that still give me lots of trouble -- but I really think there's something else
going on too.










gougou -



Quote:

Given the extremely wide range of accents and dialects that native speakers can understand, I
think it's safe to assume that it was our pronunciation that was off.

How often do you have people asking you to repeat on the phone?


I quite liked Bill Dodson's post on this problem:

Quote:

The vendor, a young, pretty girl, simply stared back at the customer, perplexed.












gato -



Quote:



Quote:

I'm of Chinese descent
There have also been plenty of occasions when Chinese have asked me to repeat things two or even
three times despite me being absolutely sure that I said it clearly. Given the extremely wide
range of accents and dialects that native speakers can understand, I think it's safe to assume
that it was our pronunciation that was off.

How often do you have people asking you to repeat on the phone?

Pravit said he's Chinese-American. People aren't asking him to repeat because he looks foreign.

Pravit has uploaded before recordings of his speaking Chinese (see link below). You can compare
and see if your accent is better than his. I'm not sure I see any evidence of discrimination here
on the basis of skin color.
http://www. /showthread.php?t=15577










gougou -



Quote:

Pravit said he's Chinese-American. People aren't asking him to repeat because he looks foreign.

My accent certainly is not better than his, that's why I was wondering. Because when I speak on
the phone, nobody asks me to repeat - in fact, some people won't believe me when I tell them I'm a
foreigner (granted, that mostly happens when calling to the South ). Speaking face to face,
though, I often have the impression that people don't understand me more because of a mental block
than because of my mispronunciation.

My ex was from HK, so her face looked Chinese alright, but people would be able to tell (I guess
from her clothes and her behavior) that she was not from the mainland. Most guessed Korean... That
could be the case for pravit, too.










heifeng -



Quote:

I'm not sure I see any evidence of discrimination here on the basis of skin color.

I don't think it's discrimination, it's more of the shock factor that people don't EXPECT that you
are speaking Chinese if you are a foreigner...or sometimes they even are trying to think of what
to say to you in English instead of just listening to you speak to them in Chinese....



Quote:

Pravit said he's Chinese-American. People aren't asking him to repeat because he looks foreign.

Also it is very possible the Chinese person's putonghua listening comprehension is just not that
good either =D

So going on a side topic, I think this is the reason some of us may get a lil' obsessed with our
pronounciation. Some of us obvious foreigners probably figure that only if we are really freakin'
good can we have people understand us 99% of the time and potentially stop people telling us to
aspire to be dashan...hehe

Also, on the phone topic, I've had 'qq friends' or whatever in the past that I would talk to on
the phone quite often and no one really ever guessed that I was a foreigner. They just thought
that I wasn't doing my part to learn putonghua well enough and just spoke another dialect, hence
my 'accent'. Overall, there were minimal problems with the Chinese person understanding me, if I
understood or wanted to understand what they where going on about is another story..... I think I
have talked about this before on this board, but chatting with strangers on qq w/o the 视频 and
not revealing your identity is about the only way you are gonna get honest feedback on your accent
from Chinese people, and the only way you can avoid the whole 'how do you like China' and other
b.s. questioning and dumbed down Chinese that comes with having a foreign face....I highly
recommend it...at least for a short time, or until you want to learn more civilized language and
get sick of wangba's....










赫杰 -



Quote:

I think I have talked about this before on this board, but chatting with strangers on qq w/o the
视频 and not revealing your identity is about the only way you are gonna get honest feedback on
your accent from Chinese people, and the only way you can avoid the whole 'how do you like China'
and other b.s. questioning and dumbed down Chinese that comes with having a foreign face....I
highly recommend it

Thank you heifeng for the recommendation, I also often commend using QQ as a tool for improvement.

About the whole avoiding dumbed down Chinese and questions thing, my recommendation is finding
someone (if you are in the position to do so) that you really enjoy talking to, someone that can
become a really really good friend. What I mean is, I personally feel it's better to have a few
really close friends, you know that kinds where you can just talk for hours and hours about the
meaningful topics or just whatever, instead of having just many many not so close friends. Of
course if you are really really 外向 then go get as many friends as you can.

But I am just saying, be sure to try to find those people who simply allow you to forget that you
are a 老外 (to some extent), those that actually talk to you as if you were just a normal friend
(even chinese friend), and stick with them as much as possible. Finally, when faced with the
painfully typical questions, routine questions warrant routine responses, say your say (or ignore
them outright, if desired) and leave them to make better use of your time.

HJ












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zhwj -

Etiquette:

- point 2 should have a note about the Chinese-language section of the forum
- I'm apparently in violation of point 5
- will you merge in the comment about "sensitive topics" and Chinese law?










gato -

Probably should put the rules in the FAQ at some point.
http://www. /faq.php










roddy -

It would make more sense to move the faq into the forum proper, as that way I can edit it slightly
easier. But can link them back and forth. This'll also get a link in the header or footer, plus
from posting pages. I fully realize that many won't read it but it means they can at least be
expected to have read it.

Will edit in something about Chinese-language sections, and also rewrite the bit about names. I
was thinking more about people with names like ✍ ✎ ✏ or i___AM_teh_REAPA!!!, which does
happen on occasion. I'm not about to start a 实名制度. Or maybe . . .

Yes, there'll need to be a bit about "Chinese law" in there - although that's as much because
anything 'controversial' tends to generate more heat than light.












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> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China > Classifieds
need a mandarin teacher?
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Alissia -

I am a native mandarin speaker,and live very near to BCLU. I'm also an English major, and can
communicate in English well. I used to teach a English native speaker madarin. So if anyone living
near Wudaokou or BCLU want to find a private madarin tutor, you can contact me at
celeryfar@hotmail.com



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Pnyin - HELP: Advice needed for an IUP-level program - other possibilities? - Page 2 -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools
HELP: Advice needed for an IUP-level program - other possibilities?
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venture160 -

enrolling at Renda does not require an HSK score, I enrolled in graduate classes and they didn't
seem to care about anything besides a check



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muirm -

Hmm, #8 doesn't seem like a sure bet (I think there are 50 students total in the program?). You
could ask the IUP director at Berkeley what she thinks, but I would guess she would also say you
should look at other options. Sorry if I got your hopes up










amandagmu -

No worries. I'll figure it out. I'm perpetually screwed as being relegated to "Team B" since I
don't go to Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, etc for a PhD program. I'm starting to get used to it,
although I'm frustrated by the lack of encouragement (and in some cases I would venture to say
discouragement) that I am receiving from various programs right now, not to mention:

"Yea its expensive. but isn't it the same price as IUP?"

Well, IUP is $13,000 for a full year (2 semesters), whereas CET is the same price for one
semester. IUP has the name and reputation for my field, while I've never heard much about CET.
Either way I'll have to take loans out, loans that will take forever to re-pay as a historian.

I worry about self-study in a field like history precisely because of the terms. And I do think I
would need an expert in Chinese history in China to actually sit with me or let me take a class
with him or her where I could learn the language of history. As for the specific terms I
mentioned, they were just examples. But certainly the terms have and will continue to change and,
for that matter, cannot always be easily translated. That's part of my concern: correct
translation of a highly charged word that has changed in meaning. A better example might be
nongmin. How would you translate this word? Who is a nongmin? How has the meaning of this word
changed in China in the 20th century?

Anyways, I am looking into the CET-Harbin program. The blogs are helpful. Thanks for letting me
know about them!

~Amanda










derekws -

Amanda-

Don't give up on IUP just yet. I've been offered an interview, but there's a good chance I'll
either fail that or be unable to afford the program. I have to imagine there are others in my
situation. Hopefully they number enough that you'll be able to attend.

But more importantly, even if IUP doesn't work out, you have other options. Whether it's through
CET or direct enrollment at a Chinese university, *someone* will be wiling to satisfy your
requirements. China's a very big country, and the 2007-08 school year isn't for months yet. For
now, I'd follow up all the connections you have in America and China, and see if you can't turn
something up. Don't be too shy to ask your professors for help and advice. Worst comes to worse,
you can enroll in a language program and pay a grad student on the side for help with historical
vocabulary.

Best,

Derek










venture160 -

I feel you on the elite school thing. If you go to a ivy league school for study you have tons of
oppurtunities, but if you don't, its impossible to get them.

Example, when yale kids study abroad everything is covered by the school including beer and
travel. Its essentially free.










Jamoldo -

Amanda, could you check your Private Messages?










doumeizhen -

Well, I think there are also other ways, other than school...

IUP is really good at rigorous training and teaching you how to use all the proper words together
(though improper is so much more fun!). It focuses on all areas of learning, reading, writing,
speaking, so your overall levels will see improvement.

I recently ran into an old teacher the other day who is teaching privately now. You get the same
kind of attention, and while not as intense and focused on rote memorization, it has the benefit
of you being able to talk about your own material, which in the end is very useful.

Plus, its cheaper. I did the math.

So, at IUP you have 4 quarters of 8 weeks, and everyday you have "two hours" of class (this is
their little system of calculation, ask me if you really want to know). So 4 quarters x 8 weeks x
5 days equals160. So, 160 hours of 1 on 1 classtime (though its usually more time because you have
classmates, if you were only taking 1 on 1 classes, which are the advanced classes, then it would
be a flat 160 hours). So, a private teacher will cost you about 100 RMB per hour for a good,
really educated one: 160X100=16,000RMB, divided by 8 for the conversion makes 2,000 American
buckaroos. When I did this math I wanted to cry....

But anyways, I think while IUP is a nice thing on a resume, and plus its very, very good training.
However, it's not the only option. The mot important thing is really how bad you want to learn and
how much you are willing to put into it emotionally.










Jamoldo -

Problem with private teaching is that you need to be very disciplined to do it. Ie make sure you
just don't randomly cancel on the teacher and what not, which I know I would do. Then I know I
would get into a negative cycle and not have class for days. In a program though I would go to
class since it would be something tangible and fixed, something that I could not just cancel on my
own... But that's just me.

Plus I've heard some not so good things about IUP from some current students. I was very surprised.










gato -



Quote:

Plus I've heard some not so good things about IUP from some current students. I was very surprised.

Can you tell us?










imron -



Quote:

In a program though I would go to class since it would be something tangible and fixed,

There are plenty of private lessons available through a program, with fixed timetables and the
like.












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Study Chinese - 沒結果的一些感情 -

> Chinese Culture > Music
沒結果的一些感情
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skylee -

沒結果的一些感情
曲：Kisaburoo Suzuki/Akiru Otsu　詞：林振強　唱：黃凱芹

一杯黑咖啡　一片燈影　夜半三點的空酒瓶
通通不作聲　不作一聲　共我觀夜靜
一雙黑眼睛　一個身影　沒結果的一些感情
一生牽我心　使我只好　用這生認命

輕輕把你想　雖說不應　但我最愛這夢境
可否講我知　一切安好　活得高興
輕輕把你想　把你傾聽　自製數個百個夢境
管不得究竟　真正開心　或假高興

願你一生沒哀傷　願你終於找到自己方向
若偶不開心便找我　別要孤單的獨唱
將哀傷全交給我　完全不須要覺牽強
(知不知　 離開的你　 完全不須說對不起)

Listen



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Learn Mandarin online - Thoughts on promotional / commercial posts - Page 2 -

> Announcements > Bug Reports / Help
Thoughts on promotional / commercial posts
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trevelyan -

If a site is covered with Google advertisements and is just looking for traffic I'm happy to have
them pay Roddy for the privilege of spamming me.



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roddy -

Very kind of you, sir!

However, this isn't a paid thing - it's about people (who may or may not pay for advertising in
another form) using the forums to attempt to attract customers or eyeballs. Actual paid
advertising is another issue.

The signature idea, incidentally, I don't like as value for money would then be associated with
the number of posts you made, which isn't a guarantee of quality posting.










wushijiao -



Quote:

Then everyone is exposed to lots of irrelevant text

Good point. Just wanted Roddy to get rich or die tryin'!










roddy -

Thanks for all the comments. What's I'm currently discussing with a couple of firms is having
designated 'commercial' members, who'd be clearly identified via username / avatar / signature
posting on a regular basis in their area of expertise. For example a Chinese school might have one
of their teachers post answers to the various 'how do I say / use X' questions. I can't see any
problem with this - we get the added value of the answers, school gets a bit more exposure.
Quality of posts would be monitored, and quantity would be controlled. Thoughts on that welcome.
It's nothing that couldn't have happened previously - I would never have objected to people doing
this - but now I'm going to firms saying something along the lines of 'You want to get your name
on the forums? Then you need to . . . .' and putting it on a more concrete basis.










tokyo_girl -

Every time I come back here the site is bigger and more active!
It's been a while since I have been ehre, and am probably not really qualified to comment
anymore....
but...
FWIW....
I see beneifts for the readership with this kind of commercial post.
The quality of the info should be good - if not presumably they will not be alowed to continue
posting. Furthermore, the fact that it is clearly identified as commercial means that people don't
need to have their scepticism antena so fine tuned. It also gives exposure to businesses that are
in all probablility legit.
So long as quality of posts is maintained and it's not obtrusive advertising, it sounds win-win to
me...
:-)










roddy -

Stick around and make it biggerer and more activerer

Good to see you still dropping in, thanks for your thoughts.










tokyo_girl -














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Learn Mandarin online - Northern slangs used in Guangzhou newspaper - Page 2 -

> Learning Chinese > Non-Mandarin Chinese
Northern slangs used in Guangzhou newspaper
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wushijiao -



Quote:

Being in Guangzhou for the last few days, I can safely say that Putonghua has completely taken
over Cantonese. Sad but true... Seems that there are more notherners in Guangzhou than the locals.

Just wondering, to what degree is that due to the education system and the media, which are both
in Putonghua?

Also, I think it is important to keep in mind that cities like Guangzhou got special treatment
under the CCP, often times using money from farmers who were legally barred from entering the
city. Then they could enter the city and were exploited in sweatshops and the like. Or even killed
by the Guangzhou police.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/Jul/69295.htm

I think the term "invasion" is fairly insulting and rude term to describe other Chinese people
(not that it is any of my business, I guess).



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Ncao -



Quote:

Just wondering, to what degree is that due to the education system and the media, which are both
in Putonghua?

Actually unlike other Chinese cities Guangzhou really has no restrictions on dialects in the
media. There are many television and radio programs in Cantonese.










atitarev -

Many foreign words penetrated Mandarin via Cantonese, so it's a two-way street.

These words and many more sound much closer to the original in Cantonese than in Mandarin:
Jiānádà, Ruìdiǎn, Ruìshì










Quest -



Quote:

But another clear fact is that cultural fusion is an unavoidable trend.

It's not unavoidable, it's being promoted.

studentyoung, the examples you gave, those were passive absorptions. Constant migration is active
invasion. They are different. I think I have a good sense of what kind of Guangzhouren you are.

wannabeafreak, which part of the city did you go to? there's a trend for the locals to move to the
suburbs just to get away from the filth, but then if you look carefully, I think you can still
find lots of Guangzhouren around the city.










Ian_Lee -

I have no qualm against learning Putonghua.

But the problem is those locals who speak imperfect Putonghua in Guangzhou are stigmatized by the
newspapers (probably seated with non-Cantonese editor) as 不文明 (uncivilized).

Well, I only consider those behaviors like spitting, throwing rubbish, jumping queue,....etc as
uncivilized behavior (I would say the northerners are in a bigger proportion to engage in such
activities) while unable to speak fluent Putonghua can at most be described as "un-nationalistic".

Anyway, why do Putonghua speakers think that the "落车" sign in Guangzhou is incorrect and
should be "下车"? 落车 should be readily comprehensible to them after a second guess. The
difference is as trivial as between "To rent" and "To let".










Quest -



Quote:

I think the term "invasion" is fairly insulting and rude term to describe other Chinese people
(not that it is any of my business, I guess).

I think calling it invasion is very reasonable. If nothing's done, it won't be long before the
local culture and language completely disappear... it's worse than invasion, it's a war you can't
fight. And, who are they to call non-mandarin speakers uncivilized ? colonial overlords? Beijing's
官僚主义 can rot in hell...

take America, for example, I am sure many Americans would be upset if Latino Americans took over
and changed the national langauge to Spanish and "forced" everyone to speak Spanish.










studentyoung -



Quote:

I think I have a good sense of what kind of Guangzhouren you are.

唔好"I
think"啦。实际D，唔该快D叫FBI黎查我啦，我话埋俾你知，我地家族o既族谱就�
��左系我屋企o既二楼咋! ~ ~　我宜家真系好惊惊啊~　～！惊住你叫唔郁D
FBI，叫呢度D派出所o既阿 Sir 黎查啦！Please don't just "I think". Please call for FBI
to investigate me. I can tell you that my family record book is placed on the second flood of my
house. I am so scared ~ ~! I am afraid that you can’t call for any FBI, so just call for a local
police at a local police station to investigate me. )



Quote:

Constant migration is active invasion.

Good point! Quest, why did you immigrate to U.S? I am sure that you won’t forget that
“constant migration is active invasion”, right?



Quote:

take America, for example, I am sure many Americans would be upset if Latino Americans took over
and changed the national langauge to Spanish and "forced" everyone to speak Spanish.

Take Guangzhou as an example, the national language is still Putonghua. I have to remind you
again, Quest, Guangzhou is a city of China, not an independent country! But Cantonese is still
very active in people’s daily life. I, as being a Cantonese, speak in Cantonese everyday.



Quote:

Actually unlike other Chinese cities Guangzhou really has no restrictions on dialects in the
media. There are many television and radio programs in Cantonese.

Yes, Ncao is right. 珠江台、广州电视台、南方电视台 have numerous Cantonese TV
programs for both local Cantonese people to enjoy and northerners to learn Cantonese. What’s
more, there are so many radio stations broadcast in Cantonese, like
城市之声，FM96.7金曲频道, 羊城交通台.
In fact, Guangzhou Daily广州日报 is the most impactive and biggest 机关党报 in Guangzhou.
You can still find that Cantonese is even taught on it.

http://gzdaily.dayoo.com/html/2007-0...t_22878938.htm 流嘢
If you input “饶原生”or "阿叻同阿靓" in the blank of “搜索”, you can get more
Cantonese material.



Quote:

Being in Guangzhou for the last few days, I can safely say that Putonghua has completely taken
over Cantonese. Sad but true... Seems that there are more notherners in Guangzhou than the locals.

Being a Cantonese in Guangzhou for all my life (so far), I can safely say that Putonghua has not
yet completely taken over Cantonese. But Cantonese now can master Putonghua better than they were
twenty years ago.

Thanks!










HashiriKata -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Quest

take America, for example, I am sure many Americans would be upset if Latino Americans took over
and changed the national langauge to Spanish and "forced" everyone to speak Spanish.


Quest, should I remind you that America, by your definition, belongs to the "Red Indians" ? No
need yet to mention Spanish speakers taking over, should we first drive all English speakers out
of this continent?

I can definitely understand your feelings about Guangzhou being flooded with Northerners but what
do you propose to do? Setting up barbed-wire barriers all around Guangzhou and stop all movement
of Chinese people within China? Or perhaps calling for Guangzhou's independence by inviting
outside forces to come in to occupy China and keep Northerners at bay ?










gato -

Most of the new immigrants to Guangzhou aren't "Northerners" per se, but are from Hunan, Sichuan,
Jiangxi, and Guangxi, the southern provinces that surround Guangdong. This may not add anything to
the debate, but take it as a factual correction, if you will.

See this article:
http://news.sohu.com/20070209/n248149046.shtml
善待农民工 广州副市长称市民不怕外来工抢饭碗
2007年02月09日13:56

　苏泽群介绍，广州1100万常住人口中，就有360多万外来人口，纳入各级劳动
保障部门登记就业的达160.65万人(不含中央、部队驻粤及省直属用人单位)，��
�量较去年末的147.36万增长9.0%。其中外来农民工为138.25万人，占总量的86.05%��
�主要来自湖南、四川、江西、广西等省份。
Rough translation: Among the 11 million Guangzhou residents, 3.6 million are immigrants, 1.38
million of whom are migrant workers from rural areas, mainly from Hunan, Sichuan, Jiangxi,
Guangxi, and other provinces.










atitarev -

I didn't know much about disagreements between Cantonese and Mandarin speakers (read: any Chinese,
not speaking Cantonese) but I also read Sheik's Cantonese forum where Cantonese speakers in Canada
vent their spleen about being flooded by "Mandarin speaking freeloaders" and hanging out with them
in Chinatowns instead of mixing with Filipinos, Punjabs, etc. Ridiculous

What's the reason for such interdialectal racism? Is this limited to Cantonese vs Mandarin?

I won't quote anything but here's the link:
http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/pho...1,63335,page=1












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Study Chinese - 'China Study Abroad' + Tsinghua reputation? - Page 2 -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools > Studying
Chinese in Beijing
'China Study Abroad' + Tsinghua reputation?
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Dani_man -

You welcome buddy...

so I'll see ya in bj, post here if you got any updates from Tsinghua.

Ciao!



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lilac521 -

From everything I've ever heard about Tsinghua, they don't have short term programs - only
semester or year long options! I have heard of China Study Abroad though, talked to someone from
that program on the phone a couple weeks ago and they were really helpful - since they have so
many program options I was trying to figure out what school was best for the summer and possibly
continuing into the fall and they really helped me with that, so I am planning to apply in the
next week or two! Good luck to the rest of you figuring out what you're doing!










FyKnight -

So last Friday I had excellent success getting through to unis on the phone (woot!). And yes the
guy in the Foreign Student Office thinks there's a short-term program run by the Chinese Language
School, but the guy there denies all knowledge of it. Still.

Meanwhile, unbeknownst (sp?) to me, my girlfriend was actually on campus on that same day making
enquiries on my behalf (bless her!)... she didn't get anywhere either altho' she did see why
people complain about how big the campus is

Then I rang BNU. Got through to someone who is a) not a fax machine, and b) speaks English.
Awesome! Their short term courses don't start till summer however and only go up to 5 weeks - so
they're out on two counts for me. But the person I spoke to was very nice and helpful so they get
bonus points for that.

So that leaves BLCU... rang them and got through easily, and fortunately they still have space in
their 12 week course. That'll do then! After all that I am going to the most obvious one, BLCU.
Just have to make sure I get out enough that I'm not always talking to waiguoren. Not that great a
feeling from overly-brusque person on phone 'tho.

OK... so guess I need to start posting in a different thread then .

btw lilac521, this is the reason I thought Tsinghua had a short-term program:
http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/docsn/wb/lxs/clcffe.htm, the relevant part being:


Quote:


Originally Posted by Tsinghua website

Apart from the long-term Chinese Language Program, the Center works with many universities to
offer their students short-term summer and winter term Chinese language programs/ Putonghua
programs. The short-term programs are run in collaboration with universities. Foreign students
interested in participating in these programs may visit the Tsinghua University Chinese Learning
Center for Foreigners’ website: http://dy.zhanjun.net for relevant information and registration
procedures.


Of course, that very tempting dj.zhanjun.net website, is almost completely defunct.












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Learn Mandarin online - Laundry in Beijing -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools > Studying
Chinese in Beijing
Laundry in Beijing
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Lindsay -

how do students who live on campus, especially at blcu, do their laundry?? Are there washers and
dryers?



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adrianlondon -

There's a river nearby which isn't too polluted, although you need to get up early to grab the
best rocks.

(i.e. yes, they have washing machines and dryers.)












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Chinese language - Learning Mandarin chinese by myself - Page 2 -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
Learning Mandarin chinese by myself
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Page 2 of 2 < 1 2






ziyi star -

hey watergrass i'll email you right away

i'm new here too, and talking with a friend who learn chinese i believe that studying everyday and
listening to audio recordings (conversations, courses, etc) you can learn a lot. so if you're
consistent in the study and really want to learn you'll make it. good luck!



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laowai1980 -

Basically, learning the language by yourself is the only way. Teachers are there to guide, correct
mistakes and to ask them questions. With a great forum like this you can ask questions here, as
well as post your doubts and have mistakes corrected. So now that there is Internet at our
disposal, you can learn any language without leaving your chair. I've been learning a few
languages all by myself prior to taking Chinese. I can assure you that all you need is good
motivation/interest in languages and a lot of spare time on your hands, and you can do it. Right
now I am working on my Mandarin, accumulating vocabulary, some grammar and characters, I can see
it going, maybe not as fast as I'd like to, but I'll get there, all it takes is constantly moving.
If you have a Chinese friend around, don't hesitate to talk to him/her in Chinese, that'll help
make yourself fluent. For written Chinese all you need is Internet, there is an ocean of info, all
depends on how hard you work. Just my $0.02.










cintiaghimel -

Thank you all for the support!! I'm really excited with that which makes me think that I'm gonna
make it, once I can't seem to be very very interested in something for more than say 3 weeks, but
now it's different! Yesterday I watched "house of the flying daggers" and I was so proud to
understand whenever somebody said "shi" "bu" "wo ai ta" and so on...












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HSK - Poll: Amount of time to learn a Chinese character -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
Poll: Amount of time to learn a Chinese character
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View Poll Results: # of times, on average, you need to write out a character before you can
reproduce it
I am superhuman; I just need to look at them 6 13.33%
1-5 10 22.22%
6-10 9 20.00%
11-15 2 4.44%
16-20 5 11.11%
21-25 3 6.67%
26-30 3 6.67%
31-40 0 0%
41-50 2 4.44%
51 + 5 11.11%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll



Page 1 of 4 1 23 > »






self-taught-mba -

I've been wanting to ask this for while. For those that write out the characters on those practice
sheets (like most schools do): What is the average number of times you have to write out the
character before you consider it learnt?

How does this relate to time? Meaning, how long does it take you to write it out 5, 10, 20 times
etc.? Your comments are welcome.



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roddy -

For my money, it's not a matter of 'number of times of writing'. It's
a) time over which you practice it - ie I reckon if you write it ten times on one day, you'll
forget it in a month. Write it once every three days for a month though . . .
b) contextual encoding. Just learning an isolated, lonely, 服 isn't going to work so well as
learning 服, which is a member of the 月 radical set (有,肚,育...), the set that share the
same right-hand component (报, and I can't think of any more because I don't practice what I
preach) and which relates to a set of words using 服 (服务,说服,服从,服药)
c)how you practice writing it. Copying it off the left hand side of your character sheet doesn't
require you to drag it up from memory. Something like dictation including that character, or
attempting to write all characters with a certain radical / component will. I honestly don't think
copying something really hooks it into your brain. Or maybe my brain is hook-resistant.

As for time to write a character? No more than 1 or 2 seconds if I actually know it. Maybe 10-15
minutes for a well-formed 像, 参 or 家 - I can never get those ones right.










wushijiao -

For me, I usually have to write a character over and over, and even then, I might forget how to
write it.

I agree with Roddy that contextual encoding is very important.

A great book for learning characters is "张老师教汉字：汉字识写课本/Learning Chinese
Characters ffom Ms. Zhang"　张惠芬－编者.

This book is great at finding the links between characters so that you will remember how to write
them easier. An example is, they give you the characters 集，准，谁，难, and ask you to
form words with each. Another example is the set 宜，助，租。 Then it asks you to identify
the common component of each character. Anyway, the book has tons of cross-refrencing stuff like
that to help you remember how to write the characters.

So, I think writing out characters again and again can't be avoided. But there are ways to speed
up the remembering process.










randall_flagg -

And: don't forget to actually THINK the word while you are writing the character. Don't just let
your hand move and do the job, try to picture the meaning of the word you are writing, however
abstract that meaning may be. This makes a huge difference. Don't listen to music or watch TV when
writing characters, focus, focus, focus (that said, I have to admitt that I love to listen to
music while writing characters, only to find out that I've wasted my time...and I just keep doing
it...will probably do so again tomorrow and the day after that...)










imron -

I usually don't write characters down at all when learning them, but I do spend enough time
looking at them, analysing them, breaking them down into component parts and making sure that I
can reproduce them visually with my mind's eye (normally I won't move on to another character
until I can do this). I guess I'd probably spend as much time as I would writing out the character
5-10 times, but seeing as I don't actually write them, I guess I have no choice but to choose the
superhuman option

But there's really nothing superhuman about this technique, it's just taking the time to train
active recall, which I've found to be far more effective than writing the character out again and
again.










gato -



Quote:

I usually don't write characters down at all when learning them, but I do spend enough time
looking at them, analysing them, breaking them down into component parts and making sure that I
can reproduce them visually with my mind's eye

It's probably hard to improve your penmanship with your mind's eye, though. Hehe.










imron -

Ah, but you can improve your penmanship by writing articles/stories/anything instead of just
copying a character over and over. I'm not saying I never write, just that I never write to learn
characters.










lokki -

That poll is pretty much useless the way I see it since it stops at 51+. It would make more sense
if went up to 500 or so in steps of 50.

Some characters require less and some more, but somewhere around a hundred repetitions is the
minimum for me. For some it is probably several hundred.










self-taught-mba -



Quote:

That poll is pretty much useless the way I see it since it stops at 51+. It would make more sense
if went up to 500 or so in steps of 50.

Some characters require less and some more, but somewhere around a hundred repetitions is the
minimum for me. For some it is probably several hundred.

51+ would indicate it doesn't stop. Why don't you go ahead and vote? It seems the 51+ crowd is a
minority (just me voting). Just trying to capture the average. (I am a 51+ person too)










lokki -

I did vote, yes, but if more people are like me and you the distribution might well run from
somewhere around 50 to several hundred and that poll will fail to reflect the interesting part of
the curve.












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Chinese School - ID for sun symbol name -

> Learning Chinese > Chinese Tattoos, Chinese Names and Quick Translations
ID for sun symbol name
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Lemon -

Can anyone tell me what the name and meaning is behind this pic below because I'd like to get it
as a tattoo.





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imron -

It seems to me just to be someone's stylistic drawing of a setting sun. Personally I don't think
the image itself has anything that is particularly Chinese about it.

This website seems to think the image is the:


Quote:

Chinese Sunset Symbol
The sun is the most potent symbol and source of Yang energy. It purifies and energizes at the same
time. Also a symbol of balance, the legend states that there were originally ten suns, making the
world too hot. The Divine Archer Yi had to kill nine of the suns to restore cosmic balance and
harmony.

But I can't say I've ever seen this image before.










roddy -

That's comic. It's not a Chinese sunset symbol, it's a sunset picture










johnmck -

The image is meaningless, it is simply a doodle that someone has made and then invented a story to
do with it in an attempt to get people to part with their money.










roddy -

The Characters are better done than your average tattoo though . . .










Kiwijes -

The top bit in red looks like a Maori Koru (Maori are native New Zealanders to the uneducated...)
I cant see anything "asian" about it, but it is a pretty picture.












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Chinese Tutor - Chinese (mainland) transliterations of these car brands -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
Chinese (mainland) transliterations of these car brands
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atitarev -

Hello,

How are these names written in China, please? I know 大众汽车 for VW but what is there a
phonetical one used in China?

Volkswagen
Audi
BMW
Mercedes Benz
Porsche

EDIT: thanks Skylee - just invented a new car brand



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studentyoung -

Volkswagen(大众汽车， 没又音译的译名)
Audio(奥迪)
BMW（宝马）
Mercedes Benz（梅赛德斯-奔驰）
Porsche（保时捷）

Thanks!
__________________________________
P.S. 对了，顺便再给你点东西。
http://mp3.baidu.com/m?tn=baidump3&c...FA&lm=-1&re=al
（专辑：《难忘的苏联时代》）
http://mp3.baidu.com/m?z=0&cl=3&ct=1...5%C1%AA&pn=120 （苏联歌曲）










glider -

Volkswagen 大众
Audi 奥迪
BMW 宝马
Mercedes Benz 奔驰
Porsche 保时捷
Peugeot 标志
Opel 欧宝
Ford 福特
Nissan 日产
FIAT 菲雅特
HONDA 本田
Mazda 马自达
TOYOTA 丰田
SGM 通用
CITROEN 雪铁龙
KIA 起亚
SUZUKI 铃木
HYUNDAI 现代

That's all I know.










johnd -

I like the way BMW in Chinese sounds a little like the English slang "beemer"










skylee -

Is Audio a new car brand?










Ding Yiyi -

studentyoung just misspelled "Audi," worry not skylee










HashiriKata -



Quote:

studentyoung just misspelled "Audi," worry not skylee

I'm not so sure. Studentyoung may just want to test Skylee's knowledge of the car industries. No?










imron -



Quote:

studentyoung just misspelled "Audi," worry not skylee

Or perhaps it wasn't his mistake, and he just used what was listed in the original post, which
also says Audio.










atitarev -

Thanks all for your answers.




Quote:

Volkswagen(大众汽车， 没又音译的译名)

Can these be used in mainland: 富斯 (fùsī) or 福士 (fúshì)?

In Singapore and Malaysia they use this: 福士伟根 fúshìwěigēn

--
Apologies for misspleling Audi










skylee -

We in HK call Volkswagen 福士. Not sure if it could be understood by mainlanders.












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Learn Chinese online - New Behaviour -

> Learning Chinese > Chinese Computing and Technology > ZDT Flashcards Forum
New Behaviour
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Fu Da-Wei -

Chris ...

Don't imagine this is a complaint. I find myself relying on ZDT more and more and am truly
indebted. Nonetheless, I'm curious about something:

I recently had to re-install ZDT; a sudden and ungraceful exit for Windows XP left me with some
corrupted files. I still used the same 0.6.0 version, though I understand you add minor tweaks
without incrementing the version number.

It used to be that, when using the input window, creating lists and such -- that I could highlight
them and delete them ALL in one keystroke. Now I find that ZDT demands I do this individually. Not
a big problem, but I'm curious is that was a conscious change on your part or (perhaps) a glitch
on my end. If it is a code change, is there a good reason behind it or was it the result of
another change?

As always ... deep appreciation.



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bogleg -

Yeah, it was an unintended regression. There is a bug report for it already and it is at the top
of my list of things to fix.

Chris












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